Legislature(1999 - 2000)
01/18/2000 04:10 PM House HES
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* first hearing in first committee of referral
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= bill was previously heard/scheduled
+ teleconferenced
= bill was previously heard/scheduled
HOUSE HEALTH, EDUCATION AND SOCIAL
SERVICES STANDING COMMITTEE
January 18, 2000
4:10 p.m.
MEMBERS PRESENT
Representative Fred Dyson, Chairman
Representative Tom Brice
Representative Allen Kemplen
Representative John Coghill
Representative Jim Whitaker
Representative Joe Green
MEMBERS ABSENT
Representative Carl Morgan
COMMITTEE CALENDAR
HOUSE BILL NO. 253
"An Act establishing a school disciplinary and safety program;
and providing for an effective date."
- HEARD AND HELD
PREVIOUS ACTION
BILL: HB 253
SHORT TITLE: SCHOOL DISCIPLINARY AND SAFETY PROGRAM
Jrn-Date Jrn-Page Action
5/19/99 1653 (H) READ THE FIRST TIME - REFERRAL(S)
5/19/99 1653 (H) HES
1/18/00 (H) HES AT 3:00 PM CAPITOL 106
WITNESS REGISTER
WES KELLER, Researcher
for Representative Fred Dyson
Alaska State Legislature
Capitol Building, Room 106
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Provided information on HB 253.
JOHN CYR, President
National Education Association (NEA)-Alaska
114 Second Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified in support of HB 253.
JESSE PAYNE
P.O. Box 1664
Delta Junction, Alaska 99737
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 253.
DARROLL HARGRAVES, Executive Director
Alaska Council of School Administrators (ACSA)
326 Fourth Street, Suite 404
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 253.
CARL ROSE, Executive Director
Association of Alaska School Boards(AASB)
316 West Eleventh Street
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Testified on HB 253.
BETH LAPE, Special Assistant
Office of the Commissioner
Department of Education & Early Development
80 West Tenth Street, Suite 200
Juneau, Alaska 99801
POSITION STATEMENT: Answered questions on HB 253.
ACTION NARRATIVE
TAPE 00-2, SIDE A
Number 0001
[The minutes for the Denali KidCare Report are found in the 3:08
p.m. cover sheet for the same date.]
CHAIRMAN DYSON reconvened the House Health, Education and Social
Services Standing Committee meeting to order at 4:10 p.m.
Members present at the call to order were Representatives Dyson,
Whitaker, Brice, Kemplen and Coghill. Representative Green
joined the meeting as it was in progress.
HB 253 - SCHOOL DISCIPLINARY AND SAFETY PROGRAM
CHAIRMAN DYSON announced the committee would hear testimony on
House Bill No. 253, "An Act establishing a school disciplinary
and safety program; and providing for an effective date."
Number 0061
REPRESENTATIVE WHITAKER made a motion to adopt the proposed
committee substitute (CS) for HB 253, version 1-LS0599\I, Ford,
1/17/00, as a work draft. There being no objection, that
proposed CS was before the committee.
CHAIRMAN DYSON, sponsor of HB 253, explained that his interest in
the subject of school safety came about from three things: The
fatal shootings at Columbine High School in Colorado and several
other schools last year; a visit from an acquaintance with a
Ph.D. in Education in a state school who was stunned by what was
going on in the classroom [which included students addressing the
teacher with the "F" word]; and a situation where a teacher
walked into a classroom and found the children being terrorized
by another student with an accurate replica handgun. The teacher
managed to diffuse the situation and took the student and the
replica handgun to the office and was stunned to find out that
the child was back in class after the next class change. When
two teachers decided to pursue the school's procedure for those
situations, the teachers were harassed, their vehicles were
vandalized at home, and they left that job and town. The state
troopers apparently said that the replica handgun would have
fooled them at a distance. It turned out that the student was
related to a school board member. These stories may not be
totally accurate, but the reason for this legislation is to
protect teachers from any kind of retribution when they enforce
pre-agreed-upon behavior standards.
CHAIRMAN DYSON said HB 253 requires the schools to go through
some procedure of their choosing to come up with community and
school agreed-upon behavior standards; establishes a disciplinary
procedure for students who are unwilling or unable to abide by
school behavior standards, and protects teachers against
retribution when the teachers use the established disciplinary
procedures to enforce the community agreed-upon behavior
standards. Most schools do this quite well in most districts and
have behavior standards and procedures for dealing with
situations that go beyond those agreed-upon standards. The
proposed CS requires that both behavior standards and the
procedures be submitted to the Department of Education and Early
Development (EED) on an annual basis.
Number 473
CHAIRMAN DYSON noted HB 253 provides some immunity for the
teachers and staff who enforce the standards as well as a
criminal penalty for those who punish teachers for enforcing the
agreed-upon standards.
WES KELLER, Researcher for Representative Dyson, Alaska State
Legislature, corrected the record by noting that this CS does not
have the reporting requirement to EED.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked what happens to the child after
committing the offense.
MR. KELLER answered that the schools will establish their own
procedures and policies to deal with that situation without
having to follow mandated procedures.
CHAIRMAN DYSON noted that HB 253 is narrowly aimed at making sure
that the community agree on the behavior standards, and the
teachers are protected when they enforce them. He believes that
the communities, school boards and their administrators are
capable of coming up with disciplinary procedures and/or whatever
remedial work is needed. This bill does not provide for students
who are not willing or able to behave according to the standards,
nor does it preclude that.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE noted that the issue of what to do with the
offending student might need some fleshing out.
CHAIRMAN DYSON announced that it is not his intention to move HB
253 out of the committee today but will take public testimony.
Number 0727
JOHN CYR, President, National Education Association (NEA)-Alaska,
came forward to testify. He stated that for the NEA-Alaska
membership, school safety is of the utmost importance, and they
support this bill. He commented that Representative Dyson has
spoken eloquently about just a few of the problems with teachers
who are really trying to enforce discipline, but for one reason
or another are having their hands tied. This bill gives teachers
a measure of accountability. It is a good bill, and NEA-Alaska
supports it. He urged the committee to pass it out quickly.
Number 0827
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked Mr. Cyr if HB 253 will put more
misbehaving students out on the street and increase juvenile
delinquency. Representative Green suggested the worst place to
put a misbehaving youth is on the street; HB 253 seems to take
care of discipline right where it should be.
MR. CYR answered that HB 253 is a first step. He agrees with
Representative Brice that until there are programs to deal with
the troubled students, there are always going to be those kinds
of problems with youths on the street. This bill sets up the
basic groundwork; it allows the school community to get together
and make some rational decisions about what kind of behavior is
appropriate. It gives teachers the ability to enforce the
policies without looking over their shoulder all the time
wondering if somebody is going to come after them and try to take
their job away, which has happened in a number of communities.
REPRESENTATIVE GREEN asked if this places another burden on the
teachers rather than helping them.
Number 0967
MR. CYR said he believes it is impossible to teach in a situation
where there is no discipline. He believes that teachers and
children want disciplined classrooms. If HB 253 helps that, then
it is a good thing. He doesn't believe this bill puts the burden
on teachers; it is allowing the teachers the tools to run their
classrooms.
CHAIRMAN DYSON suggested that if a supervisor does not back up
his/her staff when they are challenged, the supervisor is guilty
of misconduct. Years ago when a student got in trouble at
school, he/she got in more trouble at home; often today it is the
teacher who is in trouble. He is trying to support the teachers.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN referred to page 2, line 31 which reads [A
teacher, a teacher's assistant, or another person responsible for
students who] "observes a student committing a crime shall report
the crime to the local law enforcement agency." He asked Mr. Cyr
if this wording seems to restrict the flexibility for the
teaching team when the teachers and staff are being forced to
report something.
MR. CYR noted that teachers and administrators already have an
obligation to report a number of instances that the average
citizen does not. He is not sure of the definition of crime in
AS 11.81.900. He believes teachers do have an obligation to
report, and sometimes they are doing a favor by reporting the bad
behaviors.
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN explained that a crime is either a felony
or a misdemeanor. If a juvenile is doing something that is a
misdemeanor, it seems to him that restricts the ability of that
teaching team to develop a response appropriate to that child.
It seems to bind the teachers hands, and he asked if that is what
the NEA is comfortable with.
Number 1248
MR. CYR answered that there is a long range between a felony and
a misdemeanor. If a teacher sees a child committing a felony,
the child needs to be reported right away. Class A misdemeanor
is jail time. Those are serious offenses. Those are beyond "the
step over to my desk I'd like to talk to you about this problem."
Misdemeanors are a whole different problem. He doesn't have a
specific answer and is more comfortable with those lines being in
there than not.
CHAIRMAN DYSON indicated he would get more definitive answers
from Legal and Research Services. He doesn't want to force a
teacher to call the police because a student stole a grape out of
someone's lunch. Assaults are the cause for concern on this
issue, or anything that threatens the safety of other people or
really alters the learning environment of the school.
Number 1330
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE appreciated it that Chairman Dyson will
check with Legal and Research Services. He referred to page 3,
section (c) and asked if the administrator would actually be
doing the firing and putting the school board member in a
difficult position.
MR. CYR answered that in the process the building level
administrator makes a recommendation to the superintendent; the
superintendent acts upon it and brings it to the school board.
School boards hire and fire in this state, but they act upon the
recommendation of administrators. The school board members are
the responsible party.
CHAIRMAN DYSON commented that the notion of "where does the buck
stop" has been an active part of the discussion on HB 253. The
question is who should the community hold accountable and
certainly it seems like it is those elected school board members.
He will ask others who testify what will happen in the
unorganized borough.
REPRESENTATIVE BRICE asked if a school board member voted not to
fire a teacher but was in the minority, would he/she still be
guilty of a misdemeanor.
CHAIRMAN DYSON responded as he understands it, if an organization
was charged, they can be nailed for up to $200,000 which would
send an interesting message in most communities about whether or
not they are going to back up their teachers and enforce the pre-
agreed-upon standards.
Number 1505
JESSE PAYNE testified via teleconference from Delta Junction. He
finds HB 253 interesting and well thought out. Unfortunately
some of the anecdotes cited could have taken place in Delta
Junction, and there have been several occasion where the rules
and safety standards were not uniformly administered. He is not
normally a proponent of adding more laws to the books, but HB 253
seems to be necessary because there has been a lot of problems.
Teachers need to be backed up when they are willing to stick
their necks out and try to make the teaching and learning
environments what they are supposed to be. He believes there is
leeway for people to work things out the way they want, but it is
necessary to have the rules uniformly administered. A teacher
shouldn't be worried about retribution for getting the wrong
student in trouble. It is great that there is concern about the
students having problems, but he doesn't believe it is necessary
that HB 253 address them. This bill addresses the issue of the
safety of the rest of students and teachers and personnel who
work in the school.
Number 1718
DARROLL HARGRAVES, Executive Director, Alaska Council of School
Administrators, came forward to testify. He commended the author
and sponsor of HB 253 for directing some attention to a very real
problem. He suggested the committee look at whether the policies
are set at each school level or at the district level. He is
concerned about the policies being uniform in a district if the
local schools each develop their own policies. He agrees that
they are after what is stated on page 1, line 8, "(1) implement
and maintain community-based standards of school behavior that
are understood, accepted, and upheld by students, parents,
teachers, school administrators, and the community." He can also
share many anecdotes about what happened when a teacher tried to
report a bad incident with a student and the kind of thing that
goes on, but he wants the committee to be certain that due
process is given to that student. Sometimes when a teacher or
principal acts autocratically, there needs to be a higher level
of appeal for any kind of action taken. For example, a ten-day
suspension is different from removal from a class for the day.
MR. HARGRAVES questioned whether teachers should have the onus
put on them to remove a student for ten days. That is a
different section of law, and different set of policies in a
school district. He suggested that where the words "teacher,
teacher assistant or another person" are used in the bill, that
principals and superintendents or school administrators be
included. When a teacher has a problem with students, and it
becomes a problem with the community and school board, the
principal and superintendent have to be the buffer between the
elected board, the community and those school teachers. Many
times the principal or superintendent come under the gun. If the
school board president's child was the one involved, that has an
impact on the superintendent especially when the board member
stands up in a public meeting and says I've got your job if you
carry through with this. The discipline is a community problem.
MR. HARGRAVES referred to page 2, line 4, and he suggested there
needs to be a place for the school board in the development of
the plan because they are ultimately held responsible.
CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Hargraves if it is his position that
whatever the school disciplinary procedure is, it ought to be
consistent across that whole district.
MR. HARGRAVES responded yes.
Number 1974
CHAIRMAN DYSON asked if Mr. Hargraves would like the school
administrators to have equal protection under this bill and the
school board be held responsible and accountable.
MR. HARGRAVES agreed.
CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Mr. Hargraves who would be held accountable
in the unorganized borough.
MR. HARGRAVES said he believes it would be the elected board of
the REAA [Rural Education Attendance Area]. They are just
elected board members in the unorganized borough.
Number 2134
CARL ROSE, Executive Director, Association of Alaska School
Boards, came forward to testify. He agreed it is an important
measure, but he had some hesitations from listening to the
discussion. He expressed concern about some serious "lawyering"
going on here. When talking about authority, responsibility and
judgement, somebody is going to be trying to make a case
somewhere. He wondered if they feel comfortable with teachers
being able to exercise some judgment. The intent when a piece of
policy is passed is to be able to govern. Somewhere down the
line somebody will be placed in a position of exercising judgment
and at that point is where the "lawyering" comes in to try to
describe why the right thing wasn't done. He doesn't think Mr.
Cyr would be comfortable at that point in time.
MR. ROSE noted that AASB has done a bit of work in terms of
capacity building inside of communities. He shared that the
demands placed on the kids may not be exercised by the adults in
that community and it's a big problem. Everyday there are
articles in the newspaper where adults behave in a manner not
expected from children.
MR. ROSE liked the community-based approach; it is important to
understand the community norms and then people can be held
responsible. When a school board member, superintendent or
anyone else want to exercise authority beyond the community norm,
they are in checkmate, but everyone understands what is taking
place. He agreed with Mr. Hargraves on the issue of uniformity.
That can be accomplished by district because the legal entity in
a district is the school district; the district can and may be
sued. Within the confines of a district, there can be
uniformity. He expressed concern that in large districts there
may be schools who don't share the same community base as other
schools in the same district. Uniformity is appropriate at the
district level because the elected body can and will be held
responsible. If everybody is responsible then nobody is
responsible. So if everybody is protected, nobody is protected.
He believes that classroom teachers should have some authority to
exercise discipline within the classroom, and those things need
to be described, but who is held responsible when the teacher,
principal or superintendent is relieved of responsibility? The
elected body who has no technical expertise? They are a
governing body. He suggested that teachers be empowered but what
the teachers will be accountable for must be described clearly.
In a court of law people will try to stretch that area of
judgment into a more palatable point of view for their client.
MR. ROSE noted that school board members only have authority to
act in a duly constituted meeting. However, board members can
exercise some political strength, and that is a concern. He
agreed that HB 253 should have a Judiciary Committee referral.
The issue of governance by a body rather than an individual needs
to be examined.
TAPE 00-2, SIDE B
Number 2332
MR. ROSE noted his concern about indemnifying people authorized
to act and if sued, holding the district responsible. He brought
up the issue of employment and termination and explained that the
superintendent is the executive officer of a school district and
ex-officio member of that board. To protect or indemnify that
person from the governing board is a problem. Someone has to be
held responsible and the school board and its chief executive
officer is the someone. He doesn't know how the executive
officer is saved from the governing board; he believes they are
one and the same. He believes that principals should be
addressed in terms of provisions for protection as well as
teachers and other individuals, but the superintendent is an ex-
officio member of the board. That relationship has to be built
and fostered. He agreed HB 253 is well thought out; he wanted to
make sure something wasn't done inadvertently without having a
chance to discuss it.
Number 2242
REPRESENTATIVE KEMPLEN asked Mr. Rose how he would deal with an
over-zealous or rogue employee who goes after students for the
slightest thing or develops an animosity against certain students
on a personal level and is able to nail them. In that case the
parent can't sue the employee in order to seek redress.
MR. ROSE commented that they are dealing with a double-edged
sword. The same protection granted to somebody to protect
him/her from abuse can also be abused. He doesn't know what the
fine line is. The idea here is to protect people from being able
to do their job or if they do their job. He doesn't know what
the answer is but Representative Kemplen raised a point. When he
reads this bill he gives the benefit to the employee who
practices sound judgment.
CHAIRMAN DYSON said he had asked the speaker for a Judiciary
Committee referral and will ask for a relatively early date
before Judiciary. If HB 253 doesn't go to the Judiciary
Committee, then this committee will take the time to deal with
these issues.
CHAIRMAN DYSON noted that Commissioner Cross of EED at least
supports in general what HB 253 is trying to accomplish.
Deportment and degree of civility in the secondary schools would
be appalling to most people who haven't been in the schools. He
related an anecdote of a teacher who after reporting a sexual
abuse incident between two students was out of a job in eight
hours. He hoped that is an isolated example. He understood that
things are improving in that regard, but the teachers need to be
backed up.
CHAIRMAN DYSON asked Beth Lape if EED has any resources available
to show what is going on in the schools.
Number 1968
BETH LAPE, Special Assistant, Office of the Commissioner, EED,
replied that they don't have any statewide data. They had the
Youth Risk Behavior Survey before but not from this year. [HB
253 was held over.]
ADJOURNMENT
Number 1930
There being no further business before the committee, the House
Health, Education and Social Services Committee meeting was
adjourned at 5:10 p.m.
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